Fixing Healthcare: Donovan Pyle Exposes the Billion-Dollar Problem Employers Can’t Ignore

Keith Haney: 00:00:49

So today on Narrative Voices, we are joined by a trailblazer who is challenging the status quo in American healthcare.

Donovan Pyatt is the CEO of Health Compass Consulting, a senior advisor at the Validation Institute, and is the author of an eye opening book, Fixing Health Care How Executives Can Save Their People, Their Businesses and the Economy.

With insider knowledge and a bold voice, Donovan exposes the hidden conflicts and misalignment incentives that drain billions from our healthcare systems while offering employers a smarter data driven pathway. His work has been featured in Employee Benefit News, Yahoo.

Finance and beyond, making him one of the most compelling thought leaders in the benefit benefits phase. Today, get ready for a conversation that could change the way you think about health care business and the power of informed leadership.

We welcome him to the podcast.

Donovan Pyle: 00:01:44

Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Keith Haney: 00:01:46

Good to have you on. So let's dive right in here with my favorite question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Donovan Pyle: 00:01:53

The best piece of advice I've ever received is probably from someone who is very active in my Boy Scout troop as a young man. And he said Dennis Klamowski was his name and I haven't thought of his name in a long time, but great guy.

And you know, before I was heading off to college, he said, listen, you know, if plan A doesn't work, just go with plan B and if plan B doesn't work, go with plan C and on and on and on, just keep going.

And I think, you know, that's just really sage advice for anyone at any stage of life because, you know, you just got to stay in the game and things are never going to go exactly how you want them to or how you planned for them to go.

But you just got to be, you know, adaptable and just, just go with the flow to some degree because there's so many things that are out of our control. We control, you know, we can do quite a few things, but there's so much that is just completely out of our control. So you just gotta roll with it.

And that's, that's. That served me well.

Keith Haney: 00:03:02

I love that. And that's so true because, you know, I think I grew up, I was told that, you know, you know, life will give you lemons.

You can make lemonade out of it or just be sour.

Donovan Pyle: 00:03:12

Absolutely, absolutely, 100%.

Keith Haney: 00:03:17

So I'm curious, Donovan, can you think about, in your life, in your journey, who are some people who came alongside you and served as a mentor or an inspiration for you in your journey?

Donovan Pyle: 00:03:28

Well, I, I've been I've been blessed. I mean, I've had so many just wonderful people in my life, friends, family, etc. Colleagues.

So I, you know, that's, there's, there's a number of ways I could go.

But I would say, you know, I think the people that really affect you the most are the ones that believe in you, that really say, listen, you know, get that, give you confidence.

So my uncle, my Uncle Vince being one of them, he was a serial entrepreneur and you know, he was just incredibly confident, not only in himself and, but and others and of the American people.

And so I think that's, you know, confidence is such a valuable thing because it serves you so well, especially when you're going through difficult times. So, yeah, my Uncle Vince was certainly one of them.

I had a number of professors in college that were also very, very influential and encouraging and of course, you know, lucky to have great parents. That's, you know, instilled a similar ethos and confidence. So, yes, blessed in more ways than I can count.

Keith Haney: 00:04:38

That's awesome. I love that. I love to give people opportunity.

Just kind of think about the people that have impacted their lives and we don't always get a chance to say thank you or even recognize them. So here was your chance just to kind of, you know, lift up those people who have been so important to you. So I'm glad you were able to share that.

Donovan Pyle: 00:04:53

Yeah, thank you for that.

Keith Haney: 00:04:54

So let's talk about your journey into healthcare. I mean, we don't all. We may run into healthcare at some point, whether we want to or not. But tell us about your journey into healthcare consulting.

What inspired you to write Fixing Healthcare?

Donovan Pyle: 00:05:08

Sure.

So just to level set for your audience, about half of the citizens of the United States, about 164 million Americans, receive their healthcare benefits through, through their employer. So their employer is very influential in how they purchase healthcare, how much they pay for it, the access that they have, et cetera.

And this all came out of World War II when the government froze wages, but the unions negotiated that employers could provide benefits on a tax advantage basis during that time. And that's how this whole employee benefits industry started, kind of by accident.

But, yeah, so, but the shocking thing is, is that in the current state of the system and the architecture of it, employers spend $1.3 trillion a year on healthcare. But 25% of that, roughly $300 billion a year is being wasted. And so there's, there's.

And it's being wasted primarily for something that we call the brokerage blind spot. In the book.

And that's really, you know, what the challenge and opportunity that the book was intended to highlight so that executives can really reclaim that money.

Keith Haney: 00:06:30

So I love this health care talk because I have a lot of people, I hear a lot of things about health care and there's all kind of debates. Is, is the employee, you know, the employee based better or is we, should we go to a system where everybody's on Medicare, Medicaid?

As you look at this, the healthcare system, if you were trying to find a way, you talk about, you know, fixing it. What, what's the, you would say like the magic bullet to really fix the broken system?

Donovan Pyle: 00:06:58

Yeah. So I mean, you know, the scope of the book isn't all encompassing.

This isn't to say there's a, and frankly, I don't think there should be a one size fit solution for a country of 330 million people.

Keith Haney: 00:07:10

Right.

Donovan Pyle: 00:07:10

I think that's just on its face, just not, not a practical notion.

But, you know, so given the state of how, you know, half the country gets their health care benefits through their employer, that's really the focus of my book. And so, you know, the first step in a company's healthcare transformation is getting unbiased advice. Okay.

So you think about it, you know, if you're a mid sized business and you know, I'm a business owner, you're probably a business owner. There's probably a number of them on the call listening.

You know, if you don't understand US Tax policy and you don't want to keep up with the annual changes of U.S. tax policy, you hire an outside expert who is keeping up with all of those things. You hire a cpa, right, so that they cover your blind spots and they protect you.

They tell you the things that you don't know so that you don't end up paying more than you should. But, and so that makes perfect sense.

And businesses outsource functions all the time where they don't have in house expertise and you know, in legal services and accounting, etc. So they outsource these things and that makes perfect sense.

The difference though in healthcare is that 81% of businesses rely on benefits brokers and they expect benefits brokers to help them maximize the return on their benefits investment. And that all makes perfect sense. But they do this without realizing in most cases that the brokerage industry doesn't work for them.

ompanies back in, back in the: 1940

And so that's a very different value proposition from helping employers get the most value for their money. Right. So brokers sell products but they're not incentivized to actually help employers get the most value for their money. That's not what they do.

And so, you know, one of the things that we highlight in the book is, is the history of how, how this whole system came to be. You know, how did insurance companies come to be? They're really, I mean they're only 90 years old. It's really a modern construct.

And the same thing with the brokerage industry. It never used to be this way and it doesn't have to continue being this way.

So we show, you know, we basically highlight the problem and show some different ways around it.

Keith Haney: 00:09:56

So let's dig in that a little bit more because I'm curious, first of all, who's the primary audience for your book?

Donovan Pyle: 00:10:02

Yeah, so the book is intended for executives at mid sized businesses and we define that as companies that have 200 to 10,000 employees because those are the ones that are very, you know, they're really, they're not big enough to have a lot of in house benefits expertise and so they're heavily relying on outside people, mostly benefits brokers to help them get the most value for their money. So that's really the audience that we're striving to attract.

And you know, the reality is that because the benefits industry has been masterful in lowering expectations amongst employers, you know, a lot of executives have just checked out of these conversations. You know, think about it.

If you were told over for decades that hey, health care costs just go up and there's not a whole lot we can do about it eventually, you know, if I'm the CFO of a company, I'm just going to say, you know what if I, if there's nothing I can do about this, then I don't need to be in this meeting anymore. H R, you go deal with it. Right? I mean there's nothing I can do. I don't need to engage in this very often.

So I think that's really the state and attitude that a lot of executives have right now. And so the first step is to really inspire hope amongst that audience.

Keith Haney: 00:11:26

Love that. So you mentioned benefit brokers Digestive sell products.

So as you're working with medium to small size businesses, what are the other options that they have to get the kind of healthcare they would love for, for their employees to have at a good cost? That's good for their employees as well.

Donovan Pyle: 00:11:44

Sure, sure. So like I said, the first step is getting unbiased advice.

Now if you're a company that has less than a thousand employees, it's probably not going to make a whole lot of sense for you to try to hire high quality benefits expertise in house. You're probably not going to be able, you might not be able to afford it. It's going to be difficult for you to find it and bring that in house.

Frankly, there's just not a lot in the marketplace.

So the recommendation for companies that have under a thousand employees is that they really need to replace their benefits broker with a growing number of management consulting firms who specialize in healthcare financing and procurement and represent their core business is representing and protecting the demand side of the equation. Employers and employees and patients.

Keith Haney: 00:12:42

I love that. So if you're looking at this and you're going, you know, this sounds like a great idea, where do I start?

What would you recommend as a first step to, first of all, assessing if you have the best services for your, for your employees or, and if you're saving enough saving the kind of dollars you're talking about me, part of this thing is how do you make sure that companies are not wasting their, you know, very precious bottom lines on things that are not beneficial.

Donovan Pyle: 00:13:11

Yeah. So just to break it down to the employee level. And so, so, so executives understand the opportunity.

Right now the average company is wasting about $4,000 per employee per year on their health plan. $4,000. You know, you think about the average American makes about $60,000 a year.

So you know, 8 to 10% of that of their salary could be wasted, is being wasted.

And sure, some of that could be saved for, for, at the corporate level to go to profitability, et cetera, et cetera and being reinvested in the company. But some of that could go to salaries. I mean there's, you know, unlocking the reclaiming that waste creates so many opportunities.

So that's, you know, that's really the focus and the opportunity. But yeah, to answer your question, okay, so how do you identify these management consulting firms that are practicing in, specializing in this area?

And so, you know, I serve as a senior advisor at the Validation Institute and we thought about that question very deeply and the answer that we came up with was that, you know, we need to vet these organizations and we need to validate and certify the ones that are actually practicing in this way that are actually serving as fiduciaries, having a fiduciary relationship. With plan sponsors, the employer. And so that's what we started doing about eight months ago.

And so if you go to the Validation Institute's website, you'll see a list, albeit it's a small list, of management consulting firms that have, you know, have been certified by the, by the institute. But it's a growing list.

And so we hope, you know, we invite more firms who are practicing in this way to solve these kinds of problems to apply to be certified.

Keith Haney: 00:15:11

What does that process look like for certification? I'm always curious, you know, we all have our kind of standards, but what are the things you're looking for to certify a company in that area?

Donovan Pyle: 00:15:20

Yeah, that's a great question.

So, you know, amazingly most, because benefits brokers don't actually work for employers, an amazing amount of companies don't even have a contract with the broker who, who is they've tasked with, you know, helping to invest their second largest, you know, their biggest expense. Their second largest expense. Right. And so they don't even have a contract with them.

So what we do at the VI is we take the management consulting firm's contract that they use with employers because again, they sell services. They have, they have to, you know, their revenue model has to align with the goals of the employer, et cetera.

They can't accept any compensation from outside vendors. That would be a conflict of interest.

So we scrub their contracts for those indicators that, yes, they actually do embrace fiduciary responsibilities and serve as a fiduciary to the plan sponsor in their contract. So those are the. Just a small set of the criteria that we're looking for.

But, you know, we don't see anyone else in the marketplace doing that on behalf of employers. And it's a great question because, you know, we've been telling employers to do this thing for several years, right?

It's like, all right, well, how do we help them actually identify these people in the wild, right? I mean, it's not easy, right? So that's why the Validation Institute corporate created that certification.

Keith Haney: 00:16:57

So how do you help executives shift their mindset from healthcare just being a cost to being a strategic asset for their workers?

Donovan Pyle: 00:17:07

It's all about, for. Well, I mean, you know, from a financial perspective, it's all about first mover advantage, right?

I mean, honestly, I would say 96% of the marketplace is wasting a ton of money. We see it every day.

And so if you're an organization who, you know, can take the bull by the horns and start acting on your healthcare transformation, you're going to gain first mover advantage. You're going to significantly increase the profitability of your organization.

Not only that, you know, the great thing about this whole initiative is that the best way to improve, you know, in cost, the cost of your program, is actually to improve benefits for your population. And actually, we're not talking about just raising deductibles like, you know, brokers have been doing for decades.

We're talking about actually improving access and reducing costs for your. For your employees. So you actually, you know, your employees get a better experience, and that's going to help you attract and retain talent as well.

And honestly, you asked earlier about how did I get in, what inspired me to get into this part of the business? Well, when I was on the carrier side working for a large insurer, benefits brokers were my customers.

ut he founded Rosen hotels in: 1974

He fired his broker, he fired his health insurer, and he said, I'm going to figure this out on my own, and I'm going to deliver a much better product for my employees. He started hiring doctors in house for his hotel staff.

And over the next 30 years, he continually optimized his program and actually ended up saving his company over a half a billion dollars over the next 30 years.

Keith Haney: 00:19:07

Wow.

Donovan Pyle: 00:19:07

And he did that by improving access and, and quality of care for his now 6,000 employees. And so much so that he's been able to do a tremendous amount of philanthropic work in our community here, sending disadvantaged people to college.

I mean, it's just incredible, the story and the life that he lived. And when I was on the carrier side of the industry, brokers were my customers. And I routinely saw that they were kind of apathetic.

And I was like, what's going on here? Like, we've got this guy, like, paved the way for everybody, showed everyone how to do this.

Why aren't they recommending some of the strategies and solutions that he pioneered? Why aren't they doing that?

And so I very naively at the time thought, geez, if I just move to the brokerage side of the industry, I can scale those kinds of innovative solutions. I can probably help a lot of people, and I can probably make some money doing that. I turned out to be completely wrong. That's just not what they do.

Keith Haney: 00:20:08

Yeah, so that's really interesting. So I'm thinking About this from the employee side of this.

Can you kind of, I'm curious, when you think about, you talk about health care costs and better health care, the first thing the employee, employee is thinking is, is it diminished care? So how do you make sure that you don't diminish care?

Because right here, cost, I'm thinking, oh, if we're just going to get some, you know, not the doctors you want, not the care you want.

So how do you, how do you, how do employees feel like, okay, this is a good thing because this is also good for us as those who are receiving this care?

Donovan Pyle: 00:20:43

Yeah, it's a fantastic question. And you know, in a market economy, there's, there's usually a correlation between price and quality.

Keith Haney: 00:20:52

Right?

Donovan Pyle: 00:20:53

Right. So when you pay for, you pay BMW prices, you get a high quality vehicle that should last a long time, high performing vehicle in health care.

You know, because we haven't had a true market economy in decades. And this is largely because the actual unit cost of, of hospitalizations, surgeries, labs, imaging and drugs have been obfuscated from purchasers.

We've actually ended up in an inverse economy. And what I mean by that is when you pay BMW prices in healthcare, you actually get a, you go in most cases.

And I think we're both old enough to remember what a Yugo is.

Keith Haney: 00:21:33

Yeah, exactly.

Donovan Pyle: 00:21:36

So that's a huge problem that has existed for decades and it's actually a huge opportunity.

And so what we recommend as far as plan designs go at the employee level is that you don't want to limit choices, but you absolutely want to reward employees for making smarter purchasing decisions. So, you know, just, you think about it.

So much of what we consume in health care, these are commodities, you know, for the most part, getting labs and imaging done, those are commodity services.

And there's no reason why, you know, employees should be going to a local hospital to get an MRI done that costs $6,000 when you can literally pro and go down the street in many, many areas and get one done for $600.

Keith Haney: 00:22:31

Right.

Donovan Pyle: 00:22:31

I mean, it's, it's just like there's no, there's no, there's no logical argument for doing that. And yet we see people doing it all the time. Because the plans, the plan sponsors don't know this. They don't have visibility to that.

And so they're not able to manage their healthcare supply chain just like they manage every other supply chain in their business.

Keith Haney: 00:22:55

I'm curious, as you've got into this work and you saw all the excesses, the Bad practices. How do you stay encouraged as you try to work and navigate companies through this system?

Donovan Pyle: 00:23:10

You know, it's a huge challenge, but there are several things.

I mean, there is a growing number of people and organizations in our corner of the business, of the industry who are really striving to protect employers and patients. And you know, if you meet anyone in our corner of the industry, they're super passionate. You've probably met some of these people.

There's, you know, and this movement is growing and it's really been fantastic to see over the, over the past ten years or so. So that's truly inspiring.

And then the other thing that's inspiring is that, you know, just the successes that we've seen with our clients, you know, we worked, we helped a local teachers union reduce their drug spend by $3.6 million a couple of years ago. And it was the same. They're getting the same drugs, they're just paying less for them.

And it's like it was just simple things that are just overlooked because of misaligned incentives.

Keith Haney: 00:24:11

I love that.

So as you think about the approach that you're taking and how it's so counter to the traditional processes, how do you see the future of this moving forward? I'm just curious.

Donovan Pyle: 00:24:26

Well, you know, reality is, is going to set in and it is setting in. I mean, you look at the economics of our, from a macro perspective.

You know, healthcare continues to be the fastest growing financial risk on most corporate P&L's. And you know, it's at an inflation rate that's, you know, double, triple or quadruple what core inflation is and has been for a long time.

So it's been kind of in a way refreshing that people are actually talking about inflation these days because, you know, people in the healthcare industry have been talking about it for decades.

Um, so, so, you know, I think we're, we're approaching a breaking point where more employers are going to, are looking, are really actively looking for solutions. And you think it. Right.

You know, at the, think about it at the employee level, I think the Federal Reserve, you know, latest studies show that the average employee, average American, doesn't have $1,000 tucked away for an emergency. And yet many of those same employees are subject to 3, 4, 5, $6,000 deductibles on their health plan.

Keith Haney: 00:25:37

Right.

Donovan Pyle: 00:25:38

And that doesn't work. I mean, it just doesn't work.

It's not fair to them and it's actually not fair to the employer either because, you know, many of those lower paid employees who don't have those savings also have chronic diseases. And so if you, you know, if you actually improve the access to care, you know, think about people that are diabetics.

It costs about $8,000 to manage diabetes.

Whereas if you don't manage it because the employees can't afford to get, you know, the supplies that they need because of these outrageous deductibles, they're going to end up in the hospital, and that's that $8,000 quickly escalates to $50,000 or $75,000 and costs to the employer. Now that's just a hard financial cost. Think about this. You know, now the employee's out of work for a week, their family is, Their home life isn't.

Is disrupted, the employer's customers are probably affected. There's all kinds of downstream, you know, software costs associated with not managing these chronic diseases.

And so it's just about, you know, simply managing, getting unbiased advice so that you can start managing your supply chain for value.

Keith Haney: 00:26:54

That makes sense. I know that every time we talk about change, people get a little anxious.

So I'm curious, what are, what are some of the most common objections that executives face or fear when you talk about considering major shifts in their health care strategy? And how do you address that?

Donovan Pyle: 00:27:11

Yes. Oh, absolutely.

So one of the first, you know, being that we're a consult, you know, my firm, Health Compass Consulting, is a management consulting firm.

We have a formal process for first assessing who you are, who are, you know, at the, at the, at the executive level, you know, the executives that are making these decisions. We have a formal process for understanding who they are at a very deep level. What's their perceptions of risk, what are their goals? What.

What is their. Their tolerance to change management. Right. And that's exactly what you're, what you're poking at.

And I think a lot of people get, they get nervous when they can't see the future. Right. I know. I feel this way too, like as an entrepreneur, right. When we can't see the future, things get a little squirrely.

You might lose a little sleep, and we don't like that. And that's okay.

So the first thing that we do is really customize a blueprint for the employer to say, okay, this is what, you know, here's where you are.

We take them through our assessment process, score them in the seven categories of benefits value, and from there, that helps us identify opportunities, set goals, and then develop roadmaps to achieve those goals. So it's really about developing a blueprint for what the future actually looks like, what's the step by step process?

And when it comes to the health plan specifically, we like to look at it as a maturity model. Okay.

Just like if you look at your company's tech stack, you know, as your company becomes more mature, you're going to be more sophisticated in how you use technology. Well, the same thing is true with your company's health plan.

It should be anyway, over time, you should be becoming more sophisticated on how you finance and procure health care for your organization.

And so as you move through these different stages that we've built out as part of a multi year roadmap, you increase the value of your program, you're driving more value to stakeholders, meaning that you're reducing costs and improving care and coverage for your employees.

Keith Haney: 00:29:23

I'm curious, as you're doing this, what's the ripple effect you're seeing not only in companies, but also in the healthcare industry?

Donovan Pyle: 00:29:32

Yeah, I mean, we're seeing that legacy stakeholders are starting to adapt a little bit and it's, you know, they kind of move at a glacial pace. But we are seeing some movement. We're seeing, you know, big, big, you know, insurers start to mimic and concede in certain areas.

Part of that is being driven by demands from employers. But a lot, unfortunately, a lot of that has, is being driven by regulatory pressure and risks right now as well.

From the, you know, we've got, the DOJ is investigating a number of legacy players on the, on the supply side. And so given all of those factors, we're seeing some concessions being made. So that, that's positive.

And you know, and then also at the local level, you know, we've seen clusters of certain, certain areas of the country where health plan innovation is becoming kind of a hip thing. Right. And that's great. Like we all want, who doesn't want to be hip?

Keith Haney: 00:30:39

That's right.

Donovan Pyle: 00:30:40

And so, you know, when, when, you know, a couple organizations start seeing success by making, by going through this transformation, it's inspiring others in the local community and hopefully creating a little bit of fomo. So that's great to see.

Keith Haney: 00:30:56

That's great. So I'd love to ask my guests this question. What do you want your legacy to be?

Donovan Pyle: 00:31:02

Wow, that's a big one.

I think my legacy, I don't really think about my legacy much, but hopefully that it was a purpose driven life that's really, you know, try to, to solve meaningful problems for people that care. And, and I think, you know, if I can achieve that, then it's it's, you know, and take care of my kids and my family. Then it's a. That's a good life.

Right. There you go.

Keith Haney: 00:31:31

So this year on the season, we have a surprise question. Pick a number between. Pick one or two is your number for your surprise question.

Donovan Pyle: 00:31:38

Okay, let's go with two.

Keith Haney: 00:31:40

All right, two. And your surprise question is, if you get stuck in an elevator where you're forced to listen to one song, what song would that be?

Donovan Pyle: 00:31:54

ng music professionally since: 1995

Wow, that is so tough. I'm gonna pick kind of an obscure one.

Keith Haney: 00:32:16

Okay.

Donovan Pyle: 00:32:16

But it's. It's from. It's from my childhood, and it's. It's. It's such a gorgeous song.

It might actually drive me nuts if I actually listen to it over and over again. But it's such a beautiful recording. It's actually by Heart, and it's called Dog and Butterfly.

Keith Haney: 00:32:31

Huh. Never heard that one.

Donovan Pyle: 00:32:33

It's. It's. I think it came out in 83, something like that. But just. Just. It's such a great moment in time.

It's a time capsule, and it's just a beautiful melody and recording.

Keith Haney: 00:32:45

Huh. I gotta check that one out now. That's cool.

Donovan Pyle: 00:32:48

asure of opening for heart in: 2010

Keith Haney: 00:32:56

Wow.

Donovan Pyle: 00:32:57

Amazing experience.

Keith Haney: 00:32:58

Yeah. One of my favorite female rock and roll bands, so.

Donovan Pyle: 00:33:02

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And they're still incredible.

Keith Haney: 00:33:05

I know they are. So as we wrap this up, Donovan, what do you want to leave with the audience as a key takeaway from our conversation today?

Donovan Pyle: 00:33:13

Yeah, so, you know, for. For. For a couple things For. For the executives who are listening, I. I would say, you know, the first step in.

In your transformation is getting unbiased advice. So I would encourage you to get. Get a copy of my book, which is coming out this November 4th.

It's called Fixing Healthcare How Executives Can Save Their People, Their Business, and the Economy. And you can also go to fixinghealthcare.com to get a free executive summary of that book.

And from there, we also offer a free version of our total benefits assessment, where you can quickly get scored in the seven key categories of value, see how you're doing compared to your peers, and again, identify opportunities, set goals and roadmaps to improve your programs.

And then for employees that are listening, I would say go ahead and sign up for a free executive summary of the book and read it and if you like it, plop it on your CFO's desk.

I mean, really, you're doing them a favor because frankly, so many of them are frustrated with this because they don't get clarity on how things work, how this industry works. And so you'd be doing them a huge favor by giving the gift of clarity.

Keith Haney: 00:34:34

So where can people connect with you and where can they get. I know this is kind of. You can join the waiting list for your book. So where can they do all that?

Donovan Pyle: 00:34:42

Sure, you can go to fixing healthcare.com which, as of the date of this recording is being built right now, but will be out and completed in early September. Yeah. So fixinghealthcare.com is probably the easiest one. Of course, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn and X and all those things as well.

Keith Haney: 00:35:02

Well, thank you, Davin, so much for doing this and diving into this really important topic. It is going to be the future of companies and our country.

So thank you for taking the time to write this and research it and make it available to the public.

Donovan Pyle: 00:35:18

You're quite welcome. Well, thanks for having me on the show.

Keith Haney: 00:35:21

It.