Exploring Leadership with Moshik Temkin: From Machiavelli to Malcolm X

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 00:01

Well, we welcome Professor Temkin to the podcast. How are doing today?

Moshik Temkin (: 00:04

I'm doing well, thank you for having me.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 00:06

I'm so excited to have this conversation. Love talking about leaderships, love talking to authors who focus on leaderships. We should have a fascinating conversation.

Moshik Temkin (: 00:16

Thanks, looking forward to it.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 00:18

I love to ask my guests this question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Moshik Temkin (: 00:24

You know, I've been fortunate. I've gotten a lot of good advice over the years, starting from a very early age. I think the one that really sticks out to me is a teacher of mine, actually a professor of mine, early on in college. was kind of trying to make my way. I was trying to see how to get the most out of it, of the experience. And he just took me in one day and he said,

You need to be yourself. You need to stay true to yourself. You know, what comes naturally to you. So you want to work hard. You want to make that effort, but it has to be with enthusiasm. It has to be with excitement. And I've tried to stick to that rule. So whatever I do in life, I try to combine the hard work with the enthusiasm so that it feels coming to me very, very naturally. And to always stick to what brings me not just

success but also happiness and pleasure.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 01:29

I love that. I'm also curious in your life, were there people who served to inspire you or serve as mentors in your life along your journey?

Moshik Temkin (: 01:39

there were many. I think this is later on when I was making my way as a historian and I was studying for my higher degree in history in New York City. And I just remember I was very young, I was very energetic and I had a lot of intellectual energy and a lot of self -doubt too. And I just remember his name was Alan Brinkley, passed away sadly a few years ago as professor of American history at Columbia.

He just took me in one day to his office and he said, I like what you're doing. I believe in what you're doing. And just that statement wasn't very long. It wasn't very substantive. But he was so calm and so reassuring. I made a mental note to myself that I need to remember to do the same thing for others later on in life. Just help them settle down, find their confidence, find their way. I think.

I try whenever I write something, you know, book, in the acknowledgments part, to recognize the people who helped me along on the journey. And he, Alan Brinkley, was one of the most important ones.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 02:49

I love that because you get to pass that down to the next generation. You never know, like again, what sentence you have or what statement you make that really helps transform someone's life and lifts them up who may be struggling with their confidence, but they have the ability and the passion there. You may never know how you set them off on the next chapter of their life. I love that.

Moshik Temkin (: 03:08

Absolutely.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 03:10

I'm curious as we get into your book, definitions are always important. How do you define leadership in the context of your book?

Moshik Temkin (: 03:19

So the book, I'm even gonna hold it up. Look, this is Warriors, Rebels and Saints, my book on leadership and history. I think there isn't one definition that I give, but I do get the question a lot and it's kind of at the heart of the book. I associate leadership not necessarily with success, not necessarily with winning.

not necessarily with individual achievement. I associate leadership with public service. That's really what I mean by leadership. Leaders, for me, are the people who help other people move forward, improve their lives, and improve society. Now that might sound almost utopian nowadays, almost obsolete, you know, to some.

But that's my definition of leadership. And it comes in many different forms. But that's ultimately, I think, what it's about.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 04:25

You've written several acclaimed books, but your new book, Warriors, Rebels, and Saints, what inspired you to write that particular book?

Moshik Temkin (: 04:33

Well, you this book actually came out of my experience teaching at the first at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government and other places around the world where I have been teaching young people who are very interested in becoming public servants and becoming leaders. And as a historian, I thought, well, the best way to learn about leadership is not through formulas or theories or just

sort of hypotheses, but really through the real life experience that we've had as human beings in this world. We have a past and we can learn from it. And people in the past confronted all kinds of problems and challenges that we can learn from a lot today. So that's the basis of my teaching. And over the years, it dawned on me that what was happening in the classroom could really be transformed into a wider experience for readers who don't take my

And so the genesis of the book is really people actually whose advice I trust were telling me, you you should turn this into a book. I felt like there was a thirst for it. People wanted to know about what makes good leadership, what kind of leaders succeeded in the past or maybe failed in the past and what lessons do they offer for our world today. So my inspiration was really to try

get these lessons out to as many people as possible so that they can learn from the past as well.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 06:09

In your book, you have a wide variety of leaders. You don't just have some of the more common leaders. How did you narrow it down to select the ones you did in your book?

Moshik Temkin (: 06:20

That's a good question. Any book on leadership in history is going to include some names that seem to always come up. The names that we might, let's say in America, there'll be the Washingtons, the Lincolns. And in other contexts might be if you're in the UK, will be Churchill. And if you're in China, will be Mao. And in India, will be Gandhi.

South Africa will be Mandela. These are great men or in these cases they're all men. They're great leaders. But you know sometimes we have to go beyond the famous names. We have to go beyond the big names. We have to find leaders who are less well known. Sometimes we have to focus on leaders who didn't have power. Sometimes they had no power. Sometimes they were taking on very very powerful forces, powerful leaders. And that's a different kind of leadership.

I wanted the book to combine a focus on certain famous names, you know, and what we can learn from their cases, know, Margaret Thatcher in Britain, Martin Luther King Jr. in the United States, Franklin Roosevelt, President Roosevelt, I have a chapter on him, but also look at cases of leadership where we might not even know the names of the leaders in question, you know, leadership can come in forms that are very...

sometimes almost anonymous, names that are very unsung. So I think I wanted to give a perspective on leadership that changes from or is different from the more traditional way of looking at leaders as simply these great figures with a lot of

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 08:05

I always think about leaders, I always think this question is very interesting. Do you think history makes the leaders or leaders make history? Or is it kind of a combination?

Moshik Temkin (: 08:17

That's the starting point whenever I teach my class and the actually starting point for the book, I pose the question. It's like a chicken and egg question, right? What came first? Because think about it, the great leaders in history changed the world. They may have changed their countries. They certainly changed the course of events. So we say leaders, of course leaders make history, but we can't imagine.

The leader like, let's say, Malcolm X, who I write about in the book, or even President Roosevelt, I mentioned him before, the leaders of the suffrage movement for the right of women to early in the 20th century. We can't imagine any of these leaders without the history that produced them, their experiences, their childhoods.

the values that they learned from their families, from their communities, the challenges they faced, the hardships. So, and of course, world defense, right? Whether it's wars or economic crises or other kinds of catastrophes, these are the sorts of events and crises that create leaders. Leaders emerge from these moments. And so,

I think again, trying to shift the focus from the more traditional way of writing about leaders as these, you know, almost indomitable people who change the course of events, change the world. That part is true. But I also wanted to show all the factors that go into the making of a leader. Because I think that goes a little bit under the radar. And I want people to have a nuanced understanding of leadership.

that isn't just about the greatness of certain people, but also about the kind of society that produces truly transformative leadership.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 10:25

As you think about your book and the leaders in your book, is there a particular story that really resonates with you?

Moshik Temkin (: 10:35

Well, there are many, but maybe I'll choose one example that might not be familiar so much to the audience today. This is the case of B .R. Ambedkar in India. And I have a whole chapter on his leadership because he was the leader of the untouchables, so -called untouchables, who are the subcast in the caste system that they have in the religious world in India.

A lot of people know about Mahatma Gandhi, who's a very famous, you know, anti -colonial and spiritual Indian leader, great leader. Fewer people know about Ambedkar, but if you go to India and you talk to people who are from that community, the so -called Dalit community, Untouchables, who consist of about estimated 250 to 300 million people. That's a lot of people.

They all know who Ambedkar was because he championed them. was from their community. He had great success, personal success, know, PhDs from Columbia and the London School of Economics and very successful barrister. And he comes back to India. But rather than focus on his individual success, he becomes a public leader, public servant. He really does everything he can to help those who remain behind, remain downtrodden.

And in that sense, he's an inspiration for us, I think. When you think about the journey that he had growing up the way he did to go as far as he did, but to maintain that connection to his roots, to not forget those who didn't have the same fortune as he did or the same opportunities that he did. Well, I find that to be quite an inspirational case of leadership.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 12:28

I love that. And I'm curious too. I ran across some of the books, some of your leads in a book and one I was curious about, cause I've heard a lot of, they're not all popular leaders. They're not always ones that are, that you would think of as you want to maybe highlight. Like there are some controversial ones like Malcolm X. I Malcolm X, as I, as I look at his life, he was ahead of his time in describing the system.

Moshik Temkin (: 12:46

Absolutely.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 12:55

in America that we're kind of dealing with now, especially when it comes to Black America. even making the statements, I mean, and pulling out some of his quotes now about who you can trust and who you can't trust and watch out for those people who will lift, are the, I don't know what word he used, the popular entertainers of your day promoting you down a path of

So I'm kind of curious, how did you deal with some of the people that may have had a more controversial leadership past?

Moshik Temkin (: 13:34

Well, you know, it's interesting, that question is very interesting, both with Malcolm X is often treated as in schools, for example, as the opposite side of the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. So it's like this sort of the peaceful one and the violent one, the one who was

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 13:54

Right.

Moshik Temkin (: 14:01

who said we should all be together versus the one who said we should all be separate. And these are very superficial presentations of both of these men and misleading because they downplay in both cases the power of their analysis, of their experiences and the respect, the respect that they had for each other, even though they were very different in

many ways, both their beliefs, their religious beliefs, their understanding of what the future might hold and what justice means, what liberation or equality means, they're very different, but they had a lot in common. One thing that they had in common was this uncompromising attitude to truth, truth and justice. These were men.

who would not compromise when it came to the fundamental truth of what people deserve in terms of dignity and justice. And they had that in common. They were also both very spiritual, although they took different paths, but there is a spirituality in common. So I think that one thing that makes leaders controversial, that's an interesting word that we use, because remember in his day,

al holiday named after him in: 1983

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 15:45

Right.

Moshik Temkin (: 15:56

economic inequality, poverty specifically, and with militarism because he had become a fierce opponent of the Vietnam War. And so we go from looking at someone as very polarizing and controversial and even subversive and dangerous to some people to becoming a national icon with a national holiday named after. I think that's what Malcolm X was talking about is

Look how people are often portrayed in real time versus how they might be portrayed afterwards when they're gone. We need to keep that in mind even today when we hear certain portrayals of certain leaders or certain people and certain people in public life. Lastly, I think that what a lot of these very controversial leaders have is that they're not just leaders, they're also teachers. Both Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. are very different, but if you...

If you go and sort of dive into their speeches, into that activism, you'll find that they spend a lot of their time teaching. What do mean by that? They're really, they're talking a lot about history. They're talking about how America arrived at the present moment. They have different interpretations, but they're really trying to educate their audience. They're not just trying to militate. They're not just trying to do political change, but they're really trying to get people to understand

in a very deep way themselves, their place in the world, to give them a sense of identity, to teach people about their cultures and about their histories. And I think that that is one of the most significant traits of the transformative leaders, is that they teach people just as much as they lead them.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 17:46

I love that. And I want to dig a little deeper into that point because I think as we talk about historical figures leading in the midst of crisis, that what you just mentioned is one key part of that. How do you educate people in the midst of a crisis? if you don't know exact ... I leaders seem to have ... I love John Maxx talks about the fact that leaders always go before. So they see what others don't see, but to get people to kind of follow along, to come along with you, you have to educate them as to what exactly ...

is the situation and the times they need to understand. So dig a little bit deeper into how the historical figures you've covered led in times of crisis.

Moshik Temkin (: 18:27

Yeah, that's a great question. And it takes some learning to be able to distinguish between leaders who arrive and face the public in a moment of crisis, leaders who are going to sort of address the crisis, try to help people, try to...

get people out of the crisis by talking about real problems and real solutions versus other leaders who are more about exploiting the crisis, who are kind of using the crisis for their own benefit, for their own strength. And to give an example, concrete, I'm a historian, so I'm always using concrete examples. I don't want to just be

, the Great Depression of the: 1930

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 19:25

Just right.

Moshik Temkin (: 19:55

people like Adolf Hitler and others, they were the result of the deep economic crisis and the fact that people turned to these kinds of leaders who are scapegoating other people and saying, it's their fault that you're suffering. It's their fault that you've lost everything, that you're losing your country and so on. But in the United States, we had a president, Franklin Roosevelt, who actually came from great privilege and wealth.

I grew up in the Hudson Valley in New York State, a very nice place. And his wife, Eleanor Roosevelt, who was his cousin, also grew up there. And so they both had very sheltered childhoods. But somehow he became someone who became the champion of the poor, beloved by all kinds of Americans who were otherwise very different from each other. He united them by saying, no, the problem with the

the economic crisis that you're suffering isn't because of one group or a minority group or because of immigrants or because of this person or that person. No, it's because you have been let down by your leaders, your previous leaders, and you have been let down by the system that didn't protect you at all. And so he said, we're going to create a new kind of society with a new deal that will provide a freedom from want, freedom from fear that will have

basic protections that people need so that they don't lose everything through no fault of their own. know, Wall Street collapses because of the, you know, shenanigans of these fat cats and then people lose everything. He said, we can't have that. We have to make sure people are fed and people work and people maintain their dignity. So this is an example of a kind of leader. He was controversial and he was very ruthless and not everybody liked him, but he was a kind of leader.

won more if he hadn't died in: 1945

Moshik Temkin (: 22:20

Hitler and others in Europe at the time. And so that's why it's very important to look at moments of crisis to understand the different dynamics of leadership and use the Great Depression as an example. But it's not too different from today. don't, we're not in a Great Depression, but a lot of folks are, feel that they are living in a world in which they're not protected, in which they are in danger, in which they, their communities are not safe and not, not protected and that they.

can't have the same lives that their parents had and their children won't have the same lives even that they had. And so I think in that situation, leaders come along who promise all kinds of things. And we, our civic responsibility, I think, to learn from history about who are the leaders that we can actually trust in this situation? Who are the leaders who will actually help? And versus who are the leaders who will kind of divide and exploit?

and then make our judgment.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 23:24

So let's stick there a little bit because I want to ask this question. As we look at lessons from the past, what character traits can people look for in their leaders that tell me whether this is a leader I can trust versus a leader who will exploit me?

Moshik Temkin (: 23:43

Yeah, that's a very, that's a really good question. You know, the part of the problem is that we don't always have, we're not always privy to what people are actually like, right? We get a public image. And it seems like the more media we have, the more confusing it gets, right? Because there's all this spin and propaganda and can you trust the, is this real news, is this fake news and you know what?

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 24:03

Yes, exactly.

Moshik Temkin (: 24:13

what really is going on. So I actually say, let's be wary of trying to look at character traits because we don't always get the full picture. We don't know always what people are like in private. I can say though that if people don't have integrity in their personal behavior, that you know that they have cheated others or they have been dishonest in their...

professional allies and it's documented right and I would be wary of handing over great power to these people that's one very thing but you don't need me for that I we this is common sense right I say look at what is the person what is the person actually proposing in terms of the actual let's say in the world of politics in terms of the policies that they're offered

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 24:53

Right.

Moshik Temkin (: 25:11

Are these policies really for the public good, right? Or are they benefiting certain people that maybe they have an interest in benefiting? You know, we have a problem, if I may, in American politics in particular, where a lot of the public say, you you politicians are all working for...

you know, the big money, you're all working for the billionaires or you're all working for corporations. What about us? What about the voters? So there's a lot of mistrust. And so I think that in this kind of situation, we really have to look at the leaders who are leveling with the public and saying, okay, look, here are the things that I can and cannot do if I want to get, know, if I want to be elected, if I want to stay in office and here's what I can do.

And I think that ultimately we have to make a decision based on the level of honesty that a leader is displaying. You can't always tell right away. A new person, a new faith shows up, says things, well, how do know if they're telling the truth or not? Well, we have the, we need experience. We need to see, okay, they said something two, three years ago, you know, what happened with that? Let's check, let's see. And that's great thing about democracy is that we can actually study our leaders.

can actually evaluate them and then decide if we want them to continue.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 26:39

Yeah, I think one of our great leaders said, trust but verify right.

Moshik Temkin (: 26:43

Exactly. I mean, I want to have an open mind. I want to be sort of positive. Someone comes along, says things that sound nice to me, but I'm not just going to take that on. know, nobody in their right mind would just buy a car because the salesman says nice things about it. want to check it out. has to, you know, you want to read reviews. You want to do your homework. So we're not buying a meter in the sense that we're buying a car, but we have to do our due diligence.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 27:13

As someone who has studied leadership and taught leadership, how do we cultivate better leaders for the future? I think that's one of the things we're also looking to do too. How do we raise up leaders for the future? We can't solve the ones we have now, but how can we cultivate ones for the future?

Moshik Temkin (: 27:31

Well, I think there's a tendency to kind of look around for, or I actually get asked, I'm glad you didn't ask me the question maybe yet, but you did ask me a different question. The question that I often get asked is, who are the leaders in the world right now that you really admire? And I actually have a hard time answering that question. The list isn't long, unfortunately. I think we have a leadership deficit. think we have a leadership.

and that's partly why I wrote this book. Or people are thinking about themselves as leaders, right? So they say, well, how can I become a leader? So I think those are, we both, we want to identify good leaders in the world if they're out there and we certainly want to cultivate our own leadership skills. But I also say to people, look around you, look around you at your friends, at your colleagues, at your family members, see if you can identify.

someone who isn't a leader yet, maybe doesn't think of themselves as a leader, maybe others don't see them as leaders, but you see something. You see a good faith, you see something strong, you see potential. Try to encourage that person. Try to cultivate that person, try to rally around that person, say something to that person. We know that Martin Luther King Jr., he did, I mean, it's another example, he didn't, he didn't...

see himself early on necessarily as a really important public leader, he had to be pushed, had to be nudged, you know, he had to be encouraged and there were people encouraging him. So eventually it happened. But we have to do that, we have to do that work of trying to recognize leadership around us so that we participate in the creation of

of good leadership. know, one of my favorite songs is My Sisters and Brothers by the sensational Nightingales. Not that many people know them today, but one of the great gospel band groups, you know, starting in the 50s. And I encourage everybody to listen to that song because the message of that song, My Sisters and Brothers, is basically about people keeping the faith together and saying, know, when it's difficult for you,

Moshik Temkin (: 29:57

I stand with you and it's difficult for me, you stand with me. And it's in that kind of collective spirit, I think, that we are really able to cultivate the kind of leadership that

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 30:08

I love that. Focusing again on lessons you've learned. What is the most important lesson you learned in writing this book?

Moshik Temkin (: 30:17

I think the most important lesson of writing, when I sort of started writing this book expecting that I would be inspired once again by the stories of transformative leaders who changed the world, hopefully for the better. But I found myself constantly moved and getting kind of wrapped up.

in the stories of people that went through their lives and even became leaders and nobody knows their names today. So that sometimes the most transformative leaders are almost totally anonymous. I'll give you an example. In World War II, there were resistance networks operating in Europe, for example. I write about the French resistance.

These were, everybody knows, or at least in Europe and France, people know about Charles de Gaulle because he was the leader of the French resistance and he was a general and he was sitting in London. He was kind of rallying the resistance movement there, but there were people back home in France who were fighting the Nazis occupiers in anonymity. Nobody could know who they were because if people knew who they were, they would be jailed or killed right away. And that's what usually happened to them.

And yet there would be no resistance, would be no fighting back against this kind of evil without these anonymous people who were not in it for the glory. They weren't even in it to be remembered for their names, but they were in it because they had a cause, they believed in something. And it's on that basis, right, of these kinds of leaders. And I call them leaders even though I couldn't even tell you most of their names. That

Afterwards, you can actually build a free, proud, healthy society. So that's, think, what I did not expect. I didn't expect that so much of my exploration of this topic would consist of looking at leadership really from below as much as from the top.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 32:35

That's really cool. I love to ask my guests this question. Thinking of leadership, what do you want your legacy to be?

Moshik Temkin (: 32:44

Well, contrary to many of the leaders I write about, I will say this, I want to live a long, thriving, healthy life, deep, deep into old age. See not only my children grow up, my grandchildren, I don't have them yet, but someday, maybe great grandchildren. And who knows, maybe even great, great grandchildren, right? A lot of the leaders I write about,

Sadly, because they're so transformational and so inspirational, they didn't live past a certain age. The great Martin Luther King Jr., as wise as he was, he was only 39 when he was killed. Malcolm X was also 39 when he was killed. When I was very young, I thought, 39, I'll never be 39. But now I know that 39 is very young, astonishingly young.

So I don't want people to end their lives at 39, although I also appreciate and understand the sacrifice that goes into this kind of transformational and brave leadership. So in that sense, I'm a more modest person and not as physically brave as some of the leaders I write about. I think I want my legacy to be that I helped people find their voice for leadership, that I gave them or

help them find the sort of model and inspiration that they needed or required to find their path, to learn from the past, so that all the work that I did in learning history, becoming a professor of history, becomes something that is not just about the research I do as a historian, not just the books I write about history, but also about the world that we live in.

that people can actually use these episodes from the past, these leadership episodes, and try to channel them for the world today and the world that our children are going to live in. And so I hope my legacy is that, is that I, in that way, modest way, I contributed to a better world.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 35:03

That's great. So where can people find warriors, rebels, and saints, the art of leadership from Machiavelli to Malcolm X?

Moshik Temkin (: 35:11

Alright, so first of all, this is the book Warriors, Rebels and Saints. You can find it in the bookstores everywhere, I think, and you can certainly find it online. The paperback version, I think, is coming out this year. And there is a great audiobook version, which I listened to the other day. I think it's just fantastic. I don't usually...

read it, do the audio over, I usually just read, in this case I recommend actually, I think it's really well done. So it's pretty easy to find. And of course there's my website. I strongly urge anyone who's interested in these topics to visit my website. It's moschiethemkin .com. And there's even a page there where you can contact me directly. I love to hear from readers and listeners. Anyone who has a question wants to follow up on any of this.

these matters reach out to me. And I think, yeah, and just, you I always tell people, Google me and you'll find a way to find a way to read more, to learn more about my work and to reach out to

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 36:24

That's great. As you wrap up our conversation, what key takeaways and calls to action do you want to leave with our listeners today?

Moshik Temkin (: 36:34

Yeah, I think one issue that has been bugging me is I think we are in a world in which we're really focused on ourselves as individuals, which is great. We are all unique. We know we are unique and special, and each one of us is different from others. But we have so much in common. And I think that we forget that sometimes.

too divided from each other, we're too separate, we're too competitive, too adversarial, too much, too atomized. So my one call to action is to try as much as possible to think about our problems and our challenges as collective problems and challenges. You know, we had a pandemic just a couple of years ago, it's still not totally gone and I don't think that we can understand that crisis.

without understanding that we're all human and we're all affected by a virus more or less in the same way, no matter where you're from, what you look like, what language you speak and so on. borders between countries, they need to be respected, but they're also, they're artificial, they're manmade, they're not from nature. These are decisions that we make. We have a lot more in common with our neighbors.

people on the other side of the planet than we think. So let's try to think of ourselves and even about leadership in a collective way as much as possible. Because I think that we think of leadership as an individual leadership and that's natural. But alongside that, we need to think about ourselves as brothers and sisters, if that makes sense, as much as possible. That's my attitude.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 38:25

It does. Well, thank you so much for this great conversation, Professor, and continue to do the work that you're doing. These books on leadership to me are, I love them because I love learning about what made leaders in the past unique and special and how they stepped up, given the call and opportunity and the season to do something that was required and needed in their culture and their society. So thank you for sharing those stories, bringing those people to life for us.

teaching us lessons that we can take and apply to ourselves.

Moshik Temkin (: 38:58

So thank you very much for these questions and for having me on and kind of reminded me of what inspired me to write the book in the first place. Sometimes you're writing and you're saying, why did I do this? This is so hard. And then I remember, well, I'm actually trying to do some good in this world. So I appreciate that and I look forward to hearing from anyone who's listening. Don't hesitate to reach out.

Rev. Dr. Keith Haney (: 39:26

Well, thank you so much, Professor.

Moshik Temkin (: 39:29

Thank you very much.